Israel is an apartheid state; peace in West Asia is far off: Gideon Levy

Let’s start with the ongoing war on Iran. Do you think Israel and the U.S. are winning the war or they entirely miscalculated the Iranian response?

As it seems now, there will be no clear victory in this war. There will be a heavy price which is being paid already now. Both parties, the United States and Israel, launched this war without having any idea. The cause of changing regime in Iran might be a legitimate cause and the needed one for the security and the freedom of the region, but I’m not sure it can be achieved all by force. And even if, let’s say, a miracle happens and the regime in Iran falls; and then what? Does anyone have any clue who will replace this regime in Iran? We are facing the same problem with Hamas in Gaza. Israel does not want Hamas. Hamas is really a bad organisation, but nobody has a clue who can replace Hamas. So if you don’t have an endgame, a clear endgame, don’t start wars.

And we are now in the stage in which it gets more and more complicated, more and more bloodshed, more and more destruction, more and more countries joining. I mean, there are already almost half of the region is in war. Who will benefit out of it except of the arm dealers and arm industry?

Israel has always used decapitation as a strategy to achieve its objectives. Iran’s Supreme Leader was killed on February 28. Just now, Ali Larijani was killed. Do you think such killings have helped Israel become a safer country?

Not at all, with a capital letter. First of all, I have my doubts about the legitimacy of such actions. You don’t kill heads of states, I mean, unless you are facing a Hitler, which is not the case [here]. But let’s put aside the moral and the legal question. What did Israel achieve out of all the assassinations throughout the years? The replacement is almost always more radical than the predecessor. What do you think that the son of Khamenei will be more moderate than the father, or the contrary? So I don’t think it’s legitimate. I don’t think it’s legal, but above all, it doesn’t serve any purpose because finally you have to think who is going to replace all those leaders.

How do you look at this war from Israel? Iranian missiles are still hitting Israel. Is it as bad as it is projected on social media?

It always looks worse from the outside. I know it from conflicts that I used to cover elsewhere. I was always more scared before I went to the place rather than after I got there, because people, human beings, always create themselves a new routine. We have a very, very good protection system, alert system; we get an alert the moment the missile is launched far away in Iran, thousands of kilometres away. We are already going to the shelters if there are shelters. But it’s not normal life. I just came out of the shelter. You are going a few times a day, day and night. The economy is paralysed, no education system, and very few flights abroad. I mean, this cannot be a routine for long. So people absorb it. I must tell you that the figures are astonishing— 93-94% Jewish Israelis support this war, which is almost a North Korean figure. I think they’ll have their second thoughts when it gets more and more complicated. Iran was portrayed in Israeli media for years as the great demon. So people support any fight against the great demon, but things might change.

What is your take about Iran?

There is this rhetoric. Calling for death to Israel and death to the United States is ugly, but that’s not an existential threat. What was really disturbing was the creation of all kinds of proxies of Iran surrounding Israel. In the north, Hezbollah; in the south, Hamas; the Houthis in Yemen — it’s a whole ring of fire. So I don’t say that Iran is something that Israel could ignore, but I’m not sure that military power is the answer or the solution. I still believe that by diplomacy, we could have reached much more, mainly on the nuclear capabilities. I’m not sure we gave enough chance for diplomacy. I must remind you that the Americans cancelled the [2015] agreement, not the Iranians.

Israel has been at non-stop wars for the last 30 months—in Gaza, now in Iran, in Lebanon, etc. How is this perpetual conflict shaping the Israeli society?

First of all, we cannot ignore the price of the other side, which is 100 times heavier. By the time we are talking now, there are around 6 to 7 million people around the Middle East [West Asia], who were uprooted from their homes, part of them forever. In Gaza, 2 million, in Iran, over 3 million, in Lebanon, almost a million. This is unacceptable. So let’s not forget the price of the other side, and all by Israel, all those people lost their lives. So this is, by itself, very disturbing. Now, for Israel, the military option is not the last option, but the first option. This is very destructive, and it also shapes the mindset of people in this country. And the mindset of Israel and the people of Israel is very aggressive, very militaristic. This doesn’t promise a lot in terms of any society.

When you launch a war, you only think, will I win? Do I have enough troops, enough technology, enough weapons? Think also about the social price, the economic price, the mental price, the educational price, the moral price, and all this is not being taken into account.

How do you look at the future of the Palestinian question? You had mentioned yourself that for peace and stability in the region, you need to find a solution to the Palestinian question.

So, unfortunately, the Palestinians are always the ones who pay the biggest price. And they are totally off the table now, and the solution for their problem, which is now 100 years old, is getting further and further away. And except for condemnation and declarations [from the world], they get nothing. And they achieve nothing. They didn’t achieve anything in the last decade. Nothing except for bloodshed, terrible killings, genocide and transfer. We are speaking all about Gaza. I travel at least once a week to the West Bank. What people are going through there, that’s not life. They live in cages now. They cannot leave their villages in many cases, pogroms on a daily basis.

The solution for the Palestinian problem for the Palestinian people is farther now than ever. The two-state solution, in my view, lost its chance. It’s a train that left the station with 7,00,000 Jewish settlers. Nobody is going to evacuate the West Bank. Israel never had the intention to do so. And I’m afraid that they will end like the American natives. There is also the danger that Israel will use the wars to transfer at least part of them [Palestinians]. The plans are still there, both for Gaza and the West Bank. I don’t think Israel gave it up. It’s now not possible, but it might come back. And each war like this makes their position worse and worse, even though there will never be stability and peace in the Middle East [West Asia] without a solution to their problem. Never.

This will continue to bleed, a people without citizenship, maybe the only people in the world without citizenship, a people without any rights, this will continue to bleed. And as long as this bleeds, nothing will be solved.

So how long Israel can continue this in your view? On the one side, this unchecked militarism in the region and inside, the systemic segregation against the Palestinians?

Israel has been continuing like this for a long time. The question is not how long Israel can continue with it. The question is, what kind of Israel will we become? Israel is also changing throughout those conflicts, and for the bad, not for the good. It’s not the Israel we knew 10 and 20 years ago, and it will get more and more violent, more and more nationalistic, more and more racist, and more and more militaristic. We see it happening by the time we are talking now. And the question is also, for how long will the world let it go on like this?

The world, which knew so very well how to handle the first apartheid state, namely South Africa, is totally passive about the second apartheid state, and part of it continues to hug Israel.

So you’re saying Israel is an apartheid state?

How else can you describe it when there are two peoples, one people with all the rights and the other people has no rights whatsoever? How else can you define it? I don’t know any other definition.

Right now, Israel is carrying out massive attacks in Lebanon as well. What does Israel want to achieve in Lebanon? Can they militarily solve the Hezbollah problem?

We tried it already twice or thrice – we had a buffer zone, we conquered half of Lebanon, and it didn’t lead to anything. Israel didn’t become a more secure place. Now there is a big opportunity because we are facing a government, for the first time in history, a government in Lebanon, which seems to be ready, really, to open a new page with Israel, and to make anything possible to disarm Hezbollah. But we don’t give them a chance. By destroying Lebanon, we will not achieve anything. We tried it. We destroyed Lebanon, we conquered Lebanon, and Hezbollah is today not less strong than 10 years ago, five years ago, maybe even politically stronger.

Why there is so much resistance to diplomacy in Israel?

First of all, first of all, it’s always easier for the ruling classes or for the government to go for military adventures. Because it has more glory, and it unites the people around you. And it is, you know, nationalistic and militaristic. And when the atmosphere is so nationalistic and militaristic, like in Israel, there’s no room for diplomacy. So any politician who goes now for diplomacy will commit political suicide, and they know it. So it’s a vicious circle. The politicians are creating this atmosphere, this mindset. And then they cannot change it. It would be very hard to take us back to the 1990s when Israel really was ready for trying diplomacy.

Let me take you back to Iran. What do you think the endgame is? Will there be peace or prolonged conflict?

So first of all, as I said before, because there is no intention even to touch the Palestinian problem, peace and stability will not prevail in the coming future. Because of this, you really need to concentrate. First of all, this is the source for everything. I don’t say that Iran is attacking Israel because of the Palestinian question. No, but the Palestinian question gives Iran a justification to attack Israel. And the same for Hezbollah and the same for Hamas.

Right now, we can only look for some kind of stability, namely, to end, first of all, the war with Iran through an agreement between the United States and Iran. I still believe it is possible. I don’t see an alternative. Because Iran is quite strong. They can absorb, and they proved it in history with the war against Iraq. And Israel cannot take it for years. No way. So I hope there will be some kind of agreement. I think Donald Trump already realises what a fiasco he created here, and he will try to minimise the damage now. And minimising this damage now is to get down from the high tree that he climbed on and to try to get to a new agreement.

Once Donald Trump gets out of Iran, Israel cannot continue in Iran by itself. No way. In Lebanon, yes, not in Iran. So at least we’ll neutralise this war with Iran, and we’ll get some kind of stability again. But again, it will be only for a few years and then we are back in the same place.